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DejanM
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Re: Cables

Post by DejanM » 12 Dec 2011, 12:03

Interesting comments on Audioquest USB cables ... I guess you saw it ...

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Re: Cables

Post by first » 12 Dec 2011, 13:05

DejanM wrote:Interesting comments on Audioquest USB cables ...
Vrlo zanimljiva zapažanja, naročito ona koja su napisana već u prve 3 - 4 rečenice teksta. :wink

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Re: Cables

Post by PrekoBare » 12 Dec 2011, 17:32

Quote: "When I replaced an excellent $80 USB cable with the Diamond USB ($549 for 1m, $695 for 1.5m) my system took a significant leap in
sound quality. Diamond USB is quite expensive, but in the context of my system, well worth the price"


PT Barnum's rule at work. For that amount of money one can easily obtain brand new Lynx card and use it as superior digital transport, analog output or both.

IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with USB for audiophile use if such huge variants can be detected from implementation to implementation.
Methinks, most guys got it wrong, few got it right.

With analog interconnects, the secret ingredient boils down to capacitance matching.

What's the secret ingredient of USB implementation and cabling? My guess is that it does not cost more than 25 cents to achive.

Please note that NO ONE is speaking about sound difference between USB 1.x , 2 and 3, as if USB is uniform standard. It smells rather fishy.

Also, there is no distinction whether USB cable is used to power external device or not. Anoyther suspicios element. How you can tell you use the right
USB cable? (E.g. if your external device has it's own power supply, why use USB cable with power pin connected?)

For computer neophytes, USB 1.1 requres no drivers and provide maximum of 16/48 throughput, 2.0 requires special drivers to achieve 192/24 that most of audio community is too lazy/too stupid to write, and 3.0 provides blazing speed)

For me this is only theoretic question because I believe that USB for music is

Image


Anyone willing to discuss USB implementation outside of brazen marketing jingoism?
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

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Re: Cables

Post by zika » 12 Dec 2011, 17:34

Quote:
From mid-2010 on both OSX and Linux supports USB audio class 2 natively.
If the DAC is USB audio class 2 compliant it will play up to 32/384 on these systems without the need to install additional drivers.
Microsoft doesn't have a native mode USB Audio class 2 driver. You need to install a third party Class 2 Audio driver at the PC side.

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Re: Cables

Post by PrekoBare » 12 Dec 2011, 18:13

I simply love this kind of reasoning: "Listen to the system for a couple of weeks with the expensive cable installed, and then replace the expensive cable with what they had been using, or with a lesser-quality cable. They should then ask themselves: “Am I willing to live without the qualities the better cable
delivers?”
I suspect that anyone who performs this test with Diamond USB won’t want to take it out of his system"


It is very versatile reasoning, e.g. for car salesmen.

For example, a dealer notices that the tires on his customer's brand new car are not properly inflated and offers to install new, better set for much better handling. Customer is not so sure of the value since his tires are brand new. Dealer offers a test drive of new set of tires to convince customer that his tires are not up to car's capability. After driving a set of properly inflated tires for a while , customer is thrilled and considers purchase.

Dealer asks 1/4 of the money customer paid for the car. (i.e. $2400 for Mac, $600 for Diamond USB) . Customer finds it outrageous.

Dealer responds: “Are you willing to live without the qualities the better tires deliver?”

Heck, how about learning how to maintain your car first? Or buying better car from better dealer?
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Re: Cables

Post by DejanM » 12 Dec 2011, 19:18

What PrekoBare describes is not so bad way of selling things nowadays .... What today is done more often is the following:

The customer is offered very expencieve product with the promise that it will change his life. The customer buys it. The customer is unhappy and finds that it doesn't fullfill the promise given by the marketing and by the salesman. The vendor then promise to fix everything but for another amount that is even more expencieve than original purchase .... The customer protests. The vendor doesn't accept the product back because in the contract it is explicitely written ... with small letters .... etc.

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Re: Cables

Post by first » 13 Dec 2011, 17:16

PrekoBare wrote:For me this is only theoretic question because I believe that USB for music is....
Obzirom da samo teoretišeš oko USB kablova i da ti se cela priča zasniva isklučivo na verovanju,
ajde pokušaj za promenu da to malo proveriš i u praksi, a potom ovde lepo napišeš svoje utiske.

Dok čekamo da se i to čudo desi, predlažem da malo pročitate kakva su zapažanja nekoga ko je organizovao
slepe testove o audio formatima, softverskim plejerima, DAC-ovima i na kraju o USB kablovima.
Tekst je pre par dana napisao mr. Alan Sircom - urednik magazina Hi Fi +


I recently did a series of similar tests to a blind panel of listeners in a very high-resolution system, comprising a top-of-the-line late 2010 MacBook Air (running the latest version of OSX Lion, 4GB RAM and 256GB SSD) with a USB-powered Lacie 1TB external HDD running off one bus for the music files and the other connected via USB to a number of DACs ( HRT Streamer II+, Ayre QB-9, Bryston BDA-1 and the ARC DAC 8 ) into a VTL TL-7.5 line preamp and MB-450 Series III mono power amps into Coincident Pure Reference Extreme loudspeakers, with all the cables that weren't USB from the Nordost Odin range.

While we didn't test AIFF to ALAC (I'm not convinced there's a difference to be had here, although the last time I tested this was in 2009) and while we did not experiment with hi-res on that day (mea culpa - time constraints and an awareness of the ability for such tests to erode the listener's interest and acuity put limits on the number of possible tests), we did compare the iTunes-purchased 256kbps (VBR) AAC version of a recent album (The Avett Brothers' 'I And Love And You') with the ripped CD version in ALAC, then the same converted to 256kbps (VBR) AAC. Despite a lot of claims to transparency between uncompressed and high-quality lossy compression, the differences were noticeable, albeit not enormous. Citing specific characteristics, the differences were notable largely in the precision of leading and trailing edges of bass lines and a blurring of fast percussion (not the phasey effect of low-rate MP3 compression; more of a 'purr' when there should be a 'rat-a-tat-tat'). In order of preference (but not in order of play) the listeners unanimously preferred the ALAC version over the iTunes-purchased version, and consistently chose the iTunes-purchased AAC file over the iTunes-transcoded AAC file. The album choice was deliberate on two counts; it's recent enough not to be listening to two wildly different remasters between CD and iTunes purchase, and it's indicative of recent 'hot' masters without being cut so loud that it suffers from heavy-handed dynamic signal compression or digital clipping.

Following this, we experimented with the advantages of using programs like Pure Music (relatively minor differences in standard mode, a considerably clearer, more vocally articulate sound in Memory Play mode), experimented with DACs (different listeners preferred different aspects of different DACs, but the Audio Research DAC 8 was the most universally liked converter of the group) and finally USB cables.

The cables we tested (in order of price) were a giveaway grey cable from an HP printer, Cardas Clear USB, Nordost Blue Heaven USB, AudioQuest Diamond and one of Crystal Cable's Dreamline USB range. This gave a spread of prices from (in UK prices) £Free to about £2,000. I ensured the test was run blind and not in price order. In rough order of preference two of the five listeners preferred the AudioQuest, while the other three preferred the Crystal Cable. Interestingly, those who liked the AudioQuest ranked the Crystal Cable as their second choice, followed by Nordost, Cardas and then the giveaway, while those who preferred the Crystal Cable, ranked Nordost second, followed closely by Cardas, then AudioQuest a distant third and the giveaway trailing in the rear. All five listeners immediately identified the giveaway cable as 'cheap and nasty' and one managed to recognise the AudioQuest cable because he felt it sounded 'too hi-fi', but the likes and dislikes were remarkably consistent.

A difficulty this raises for me is 'why?' The USB 2.0 spec is incredibly well defined; four 28 AWG conductors (a Data+ and Data- twisted pair, referenced against a ground wire and a +5v Vbus for powering devices like the HRT Streamer) in individual dielectrics, with a aluminium foil tape, a braided shield and wrapped in PVC. Some audio companies bend the rules a bit and sever the Vbus line because they claim it's noisy, but none of these particular wires do that (the HRT Streamer is a test of that. No +5v, no power). There is also an argument that if the USB input on the DAC is asynchronous but not galvanically isolated, the quality of the dielectric and shield become vitally important, but that's not an issue here, either. Neither, of course, is level matching. So, the result of the whole test should be one of those 'bits is bits' moments, especially as the blind test element takes away the chance for someone to express their pet preferences based on brand names. And yet, not only were there differences between the cables, but the differences were identifiable enough for someone to pick out brands under conditions designed to eliminate such things. I don't discount the possibility of my own biases leading the listeners, but I've heard most of this group under my own steam and would have ranked the Nordost, Cardas and AudioQuest very differently from anyone in the group, so if it's administrator bias, it's working contrary to the biases of the administrator. As test admin, my opinions and findings do not form part of the test, because I was the one person who knew what was playing at any given time.

Furthermore, If I were to rank the group's reactions to the changes over the day in order of significance, I'd say Memory Play was most significant, followed by choice of format, with choice of DAC and cable of roughly equal importance, followed by whether the AAC file was purchased or converted and finally the use of Pure Music on its own without Memory Play. Once again, this suggests low levels of administrator bias, as I would have expected a very different pecking order (format, followed by Memory Play, followed by PM on its own, followed by DAC and with cables bringing up the rear) based on my own findings and prejudices.

So, as I said... why?

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor@hifiplus.com

Integralni tekst možete pronaći na sledećem linku (na dnu stranice)
http://www.avguide.com/review/computer- ... ed-tas-217

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Re: Cables

Post by PrekoBare » 13 Dec 2011, 22:11

First, taj baja stvarno ima chutzpah kad sme da potpise ovakvu izjavu sopstvenim imenom i da ostane ziv:

"Despite a lot of claims to transparency between uncompressed and high-quality lossy compression, the differences were noticeable,albeit not enormous .

Da se zaustavim na tome. Pametnom dosta. Testiranje lossy fajli u audiofilskom sistemu i testiranje kablova na osnovu lossy fajli ukazuje na drski komercijalizam. A pri tome uopste nisu koristili nekompresovane lossless fajle.


Na ispitu bi rekli, hvala, kolega, dosta je bilo, naucite materiju pa dodjite ponovo sledeci put.
Naravno, njegova drskost me uopste ne cudi, ITUNES Shop ima promet od preko $1B u lossy fajlama, treba se umiliti budalama koje kupuju lossy fajle za $1 komad a onda hoce da poprave kvalitet skupim USB kablovima. A ne daj boze da Apple corp cuje da tamo neki casopis pise kako lossy fajle nisu uopste za slusanje u hifi sistemu.

Clanak je namenjen onima koji nemaju blage veze. Kao u onoj reklami na tv kada plavusa kaze `Ali ja bas nista ne znam
o kompjutOrima``

Btw. sa kompjuterskim zvukom eksperimentisem jos od vremena kad mnogi nisu ni znali sta je kompjuter. Da je USB za Windows platforme pogresan put dosao sam EMPIRIJSKI, posle bacenih mojih i tudjih para. Dosta je bilo. Mislim da nije mnogo drugacije ni na OSX (prvobitno je izlaz bio Firewire, USB je dodat kasnije kao ustupak trzistu, toliko o lazi da su Apple proizvodi dizajnirani from the bottom up. Sto se linuxa tice, zivot je suvise kratak. Licno, pre tipujem na Android.

Mene samo cudi zasto ne dozvoljavas da mogu da imam svoje mislljenje o USB. Na "onom forumu" su me pravise-uvaljivaci
16/48 DAC-ova od 2K evrica grubo vredjali, kao ja budala kad trazim DAC iznad 16/48. Ne znam ko je danas budala, ja ili oni koji su kupili 16/48 DAC pre godinu-dve slusajuci tzv. eksperte.

Ako neko bas insistira na USB, treba prvo da kupi cestitu USB IO karticu koja je uradjena kako treba. Prosecna implementacija USB izlaza na prosecnom maderbordu verovatno ne kosta vise od 25 centi. To je dovoljno za priner i misa, jer nije ni namenjeno da se na njega zakaci DAC triput skuplji od PC-ja.

Umesto kabla od par stotina eura ima mnogo vise smisla staviti USB IO karticu, ali to hifi casopisi ne preporucuju. To spada u
drugu bransu i drugu proviziju
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

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Re: Cables

Post by first » 14 Dec 2011, 13:01

PrekoBare wrote: Mene samo cudi zasto ne dozvoljavas da mogu da imam svoje mislljenje o USB.
Daleko od toga da ovde bilo kome osporavam pravo na sopstveno mišljenje. Trudim se samo da shvatim na čemu se zasniva nečiji stav o bilo čemu,
pa tako i o USB kablovima. Evidentno je da po tom pitanju imamo različite polazne osnove. Jedna grupa (gde si i ti) se uporno poziva isključivo
na teoriju (koja je vrlo često pogrešno primenjena), dok su drugi teorijsko znanje upotpunili i nekim praktičnim iskustvom. Sve je to uredu dok nema
omalovažavanja neistomišljenika i to uglavnom čine oni prvi na račun ovih drugih. Da li je moguće da su ovi drugi baš toliko glupi, da nisu u stanju da
shvate šta im govore ovi prvi, ili tu ipak postoji nešto drugo?

Ajde neka bude da se u priču o USB kablovima umešala i plavuša koja se ne razume u kompjutere, ali se uvek pronalaze i neki nazovi argumenti da se
ospori mišljenje i kompetentnijih sagovornika od plavuše. Ako je nešto na tu temu rečeno od stručne štampe, onda je to obavezno drska i agresivna
marketinška propaganda. Ukoliko je mišljenje izneo Pera Perić, onda je on niko i ništa, pa samim tim njegov stav nije relevantan, a kada o iskustvu
sa USB kablovima napišu nešto i članovi foruma sa dugim hi-fi stažom, onda su oni malo prolupali od mnogo eksperimentisanja.

Ako sam uopšte nešto naučio baveći se ovim hobijem tolike godine, onda je na prvom mestu saznanje da u hi-fi-u nikada ne treba biti potpuno isključiv.
Hi-fi se svakako zasniva na mnogim činjenicama, zakonima i primenjenom znanju iz mnogih oblasti, ali takođe još uvek postoje i neke stvari za koje
nemamo racionalno objašnjenje. Osim toga, vrlo su nam različiti pristupi i kriterijumi kojima se rukovodimo u ovom hobiju. Ako smo toga svesni, onda
je mnogo lakše komunicirati sa ljudima u hi-fi zajednici.

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Re: Cables

Post by PrekoBare » 14 Dec 2011, 16:36

First, lepo se mi razumemo u nasoj diskusiji o luku, samo ja govorim o crnom a ti o belom :-)

O kom hobiju mi uopste govorimo? Hobiju reprodukovanja muzike na superioran nacin koji minimalizuje
ono sto je Adorno zvao "hear stripe", hobiju pracenja noviteta hifi-scene, hobiju trosenja para
na dodatke koji prevazilaze cenu uredjaja, hobiju koji zamenjuje odlaske kod psihijatra ili sve to zajedno?

Sa analognim uredjajima uglavnom vazi, koliko para, toliko muzike. Mali covek sa mnogo znanja i malo para ipak ne moze da parira cestitim uredjajima koliko god se trudio. Od juga nikad Ferari.

Digitalni uredjaji su nastavili trend, pojacani drskoscu nerazumnih cena i ociglednih prevara kupaca (recimo stavljanje $300 laser-diska u CD plejer od $5K). Uvrezilo se misljenje, ako nije papreno skupo, nije ni dobro.

Pojava PC-ja kao izvora zvuka je rasprsila ovu opsenu. Mali covek ima po prvi put alatku kojom moze uspesno da parira onima koji ne broje pare - sa malo para, mnogo znanja i truda moguce je konfigurisati izvor da svira bolje nego $10K komercijalni plejer.

Kako je na to reagovala audiofoolska stampa? CUTANJEM. Cutali su kao mule. Onda je pocelo omalovazavanje.
Kao, nije hifi ako nema aluminijumsku tablu od pola cola i sticker kao za mali auto. Pa su poceli argumenti
da je PC-ju mesto u ofisu a ne u hi-fi lancu. kao, ima ventilator koji se cuje. A kad je ventilator imao snagas, to nikom nije smetalo.

Idi na "onaj" forum. potrazi moje prve postove iz 2005 o PC serveru pa procitaj sta su mi kojekakvi "eksperti" onda odgovarali o PC-ju kao serveru. Jedne je boleo ego, drugi su u tome videli udarac na svoj dzep.

Kad je sve vise razumnih pocelo da uvidja da je PC prava stvar, umesale su se jajare i muvare. Pocela je era USB
DAC-ova koji su imali limit od 16/48 na USB ulazu a reklamirani kao 96/24 ili cak 192/24, vreme
USB DAC-ova koji nemaju galvansku izolaciju na USB ulazu, USB DAC-ova sa wall-wart napajanjem od $1 itd.

Jedan pravisa mi je rekao da pricam gluposti kad tvrdim da se na Windows platformi cuje razlika izmedju WAV i lossless na sistemu visoke rezolucije. Tvrdio je da razlike nema. Siromah nije shvatio da je time sam dao ocenu kvaliteta svog uredjaja :-)

Cak je i NAIM preko noci okrenuo curak naopako i izbacio svoj DAC. Preko noci su se odrekli svoje mantre da samo integrisani
uredjaj daje superioran kvalitet.

Da parafraziram druga ministra, "da se ne lazemo vise". Proizvodnja tehnicki neispravnih uredjaja (nedostatak galvanske izolacije) je prevara kupaca. Reklamiranje necega sto je 16/48 kao 192/24 je takodje drska prevara.
USB je standard za KOMPJUTERSKU periferijsku opremu. Ko daje pravo proizvodjacu kablova da krisom krsi ovaj standard? Oni prodaju proizvod kao USB kabl a koji to nije, tj. samo ima USB konektore ali NIJE USB kabl jer se ne drzi USB standarda.

Da li je ikada audiofilska stampa napisala o proizvodjacima ovih fals uredjaja ono sto je Newt Gingrich
pre neki dan rekao o Bliskom Istoku ("Dosta vise lazi").

Postavlja se pitanje, kome se obraca audiofilska stampa kad se tek sad setila da pise o "Computer audio"
kao da je to nesto novo i da siri poluinformacije ili jos gore dezinformacije? Probudjenima iz kome koji su prespavali poslednjih 10-15 godina? Kupcima koji ce preko svojih $20K sistema da slusaju MP3 i Apple lossy djubre da bi "popravili zvuk lose snimljenog CD-a" ili povodljivcima koji ne veruju sebi ali veruju stampi?

Ili jednostavnije, onima koji su suvise glupi da shvate da se radi o novom pokusaju prevare i cerupanju kupaca?
Baterijsko napajanje USB kabla? Testovi gde se eksterni Hard disk prikljuci na USB ulaz a DAC-a na USB izlaz?
Testovi gde se a priori odbaci da AIFF i Apple lossless zvuce drugacije a razglaba i testiraju razliciti LOSSY
snimci (Biser: lossy fajl koji se kupi od Apple zvuci bolje nego lossy fajl koji neko sam enkodira).

USB kabl od 2000 funti je etalon za etiku svih koji su u to umesani. Give me a break. Meni je muka vise od te bestidnosti. Ako je i za vajdu, dosta je bilo. Enough is enough! Zbog takvog mentaliteta smo svi dospeli na ivicu ambisa, sa velikom verovatnocom da u njega odletimo. Crystal USB kabl moze da nam posluzi samo da se o njega elegantnije obesimo :-(

Kad je PC u pitanju, nema potrebe da se pravi ista greska koju smo pravili sa analognim uredjajima.Dosta je bilo ponasanja kao kad majmun jede tresnje. Godinama smo se majmunisali sa uparivanjem zvucnice i rucke, jer nismo znali fiziku. Eksperimentisali smo, a nismo ni znali sta eksperimentisemo. Danas ZNAMO, pa vise ne eksperimentisemo.

Ja sam stara kajla, ti takodje. Vreme koje smo sprcali u corsokacima ovog hobija ne mozemo da vratimo. Moja je zelja da klinci koji ulaze u hobi ne prave istu gresku, jer nema potrebe, bar kad je PC kao izvor u pitanju.

Ko se ne slaze, nek eksperimentise.
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

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Re: Cables

Post by first » 14 Dec 2011, 19:08

@PrekoBare

Dosta si raširio celu priču i napisao mnoge stvari sa kojima se u principu slažem, ali... zar moramo uopšte i da se složimo oko svega? Hoće li to možda
promeniti stanje u svetskoj hi-fi industriji? Postoje i postojaće mnoga suprotna mišljenja čak i za one stvari oko kojih se veći deo ljubitelja hi-fi zvuka
nekako usaglasio, a i mi među njima.

Evo, ova tema mi je baš zgodna da pomenem kako se mnogi neće složiti ni oko značaja analognih kablova u kvalitetnom hi-fi sistemu. Ima onih koji su
potpuno neupućeni u materiju i zato tako razmišljaju, ali postoji i jedan deo vrlo obrazovanih, stručnih i iskusnih audiofila koji smatraju da je teška
budalaština trošiti iole veći novac od par € na interkonekte ili zvučničke kablove. Oni tvrde da nema razlike ni među analognim kablovima ako su audio
komponente dobro projektovane i ukoliko su valjano usklađene njihove impedanse. Kada je taj uslov ispunjen, vrhunske rezultate će pružiti i UTP kablovi,
koje oni inače i koriste. I šta sad???

Natavak njihove priče je manje-više sličan ovoj tvojoj opservaciji, i zasniva se na beskrupoloznosti hi-fi industrije koja čerupa kupce prodajući im loše
projektovane audio komponente, ili u tvom sučaju: „proizvodnja tehnicki neispravnih uredjaja (nedostatak galvanske izolacije) je prevara kupaca“.
Kako god bilo, svakom zaljubljeniku u hi-fi bih savetovao da ne troši novac na bilo kakve komponente ili opremu, ukoliko ne primećuje da postoje
razlike u zvučnom kvalitetu. Teorije su teorije, ali je najvažnije ono što mi čujemo, pa makar to bili UTP ili digitalni kablovi. :mr

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Re: Cables

Post by kamen » 15 Dec 2011, 18:42

OK Now,
All You guys in this discussion are looking like people who are lost in the desert, "Running around in circles and always coming to the same spot"

:mr

Pozz

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Re: Cables

Post by PrekoBare » 15 Dec 2011, 21:39

kamen wrote:OK Now,
All You guys in this discussion are looking like people who are lost in the desert, "Running around in circles and always coming to the same spot"

:mr

Pozz
Or, as Chairman Mao said, "No matter how you turn around, your behind is always behind" :-)
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

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Re: Cables

Post by Kuja » 16 Dec 2011, 00:03

...Furthermore, If I were to rank the group's reactions to the changes over the day in order of significance, I'd say Memory Play was most significant, followed by choice of format,
with choice of DAC and cable of roughly equal importance,
followed by whether the AAC file was purchased or converted and finally the use of Pure Music on its own without Memory Play...

Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor@hifiplus.com
Ovaj boldovani deo mi je zanimljiv :) ...

Kineski kit DAC od 50eur u kombinaciji sa USB kablom od 2000eur, svira uporedivo sa kombinacijom DAC-a od 2000 eur i USB kabla od 50 eur?

Trebalo bi probati... ;)

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Re: Cables

Post by PrekoBare » 16 Dec 2011, 01:45

Image

"Da se vise ne lazemo, uslov za prijem u Audiofile je da odsecemo usi..."

(to se vidi iz citata, za testiranje su koristili LOSSY AAC sto nema veze sa kvalitetnom reprodukcijom zvuka)

Pitam se samo koliko im je Apple platio za to "testiranje".
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

Volter

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