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Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Digitalne komponente, Bežični Audio, Striming..

Kuja
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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by Kuja » 13 Aug 2012, 15:23

"24-bit/192kHz is pointless?"

Interview with Dan Lavry of Lavry Engineering

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2008/06/in ... lavry.html
Q:We see that year by year there is kind of race for bits and high sampling rates. Where do you think this will stop?

A:Regarding bits: The ear can not hear more then about 126dB of dynamic range under extreme conditions. At around 6dB per bit, that amounts to 21 bits, which is what my AD122 MKIII provides (unweighted).

Regarding sample rate: The ear can not hear over 25-30KHz, therefore 60-70KHz would be ideal. Unfortunately there is no 65KHz standard, but 88.2KHz or even 96KHz is not too far from the optimal rate. 192KHz is way off the mark. It brings about higher distortions, bigger data files, increased processing costs, and all that for no up side! People that think that more samples are better, and that digital is only an approximation, do not understand the fundamentals of digital audio.



24/192 Music Downloads
...and why they make no sense


http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
192kHz considered harmful

192kHz digital music files offer no benefits. They're not quite neutral either; practical fidelity is slightly worse. The ultrasonics are a liability during playback.

Neither audio transducers nor power amplifiers are free of distortion, and distortion tends to increase rapidly at the lowest and highest frequencies. If the same transducer reproduces ultrasonics along with audible content, any nonlinearity will shift some of the ultrasonic content down into the audible range as an uncontrolled spray of intermodulation distortion products covering the entire audible spectrum. Nonlinearity in a power amplifier will produce the same effect. The effect is very slight, but listening tests have confirmed that both effects can be audible.




Gomila tzv. 24/192 download-ova je u stvari dobijena konverzijom SACD diskova, jednostavnim izborom opcije u Weiss Saracon softveru
i nema nikakvu korisnu informaciju iznad 30 kHz.

Znaci sadrzaj 24/192 fajla je u sustini ISTI kao i kod "regularnog" 24/88.2 fajla koji se standardno dobija ekstrakcijom iz DSD formata.

To se lepo vidi kada se u nekom editoru zvuka otvore i uporedi frekventni spektar 24/88.2 i 24/192 verzije istog albuma sa HDtracks.

Ali zato je 24/192 verzija znacajno skuplja! ;)






Scandal Brewing in High Resolution Downloads?

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-a ... oads-7735/

Many of us download our High-Resolution music from sites like "HDtracks" "High Definition Tape Transfers" (HDTT), and the Linn Records site. We make these purchases confident that we are getting, for our money, 24-bit/192 KHz, 24/176.4, 24/96 or 24-bit/88.2 KHz copies of master tapes either analog or, in the case of Linn, hi-res digital originals. But is that confidence misplaced?

If a recent article in Britain's "Hi-Fi News and Record Review" is anything to go by, we're at least sometimes being cheated. I'm not saying that these download sites are purposely cheating us by not giving us what we think we're buying, what is happening is that these digital transfers aren't actually done by HDTracks, HDTT, and Linn Records, et al, themselves. They get sent the digital copies they offer by whoever owns the masters and the rights to license the music.

According to HFN&RR, a sampling of these three sites show that when the downloads of some of them have been examined by a spectrum analyzer, the analysis shows that many are not hi-rez at all but merely up-sampled standard resolution digital that have been converted from 44.1 or 48 KHz digital copies. I don't know about you, but I have a stand-alone 24/96 up-sampler that can do that on the fly to any 16-bit/44.1 KHz CD or other digital source that I care to play. Why would I want to purchase (for a healthy premium too) a copy of a CD that has been up-sampled from CD quality already? Yet that is what a lot of are getting here.

The sad part about this is that it seems that these download services didn't know that they were short-changing their customers. One case in point was HDTrack's recent addition of the "Frampton Comes Alive" album. HDTRacks was selling this album as 24/96 on their web-site, but after HFN&RR's investigation, the download service's spokesman, Mike Lawson replied: "We appreciate our attention being brought to these titles. "Frampton Comes Alive" has been relabeled as 24/48, and it's still the very best version of that album available anywhere."

Lest classical music and jazz snobs think that they have escaped this problem, The HDTRacks release of Coltrane's "Lush Life" appears to have been filtered twice which indicates that it was up-sampled from 44.1 KHz to 96 KHz. Also from HDTRacks, Is the Pentatone recording of Shostakovich's Symphony #5 which is listed as being 24/88.2 but is really, again, merely 16-bit/44.1 up-sampled.

Linn Records too, has found their share of "ringers" in their catalog as well. Their recoding of Bach's "Brandenberg Concerto's was found to be also up-sampled from a 44.1 KHz original.

When asked to comment, Linn's Catherine Ward informed HFN&RR: "As soon as were aware of this issue, all customers who bought these titles were immediately contacted and informed of the situation. We are taking this one album at at a time and are making each album available on the website when we are satisfied with the quality. The customers who previously purchased these downloads are automatically given the corrected versions of each release when it becomes available."

This is an important issue. If you have bought any high-resolution downloads via the web, you need to contact the people from which you made these purchases and ascertain what it is that you REALLY bought. These are reputable businesses and they seem truly determined to make this situation right.

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by kamen » 13 Aug 2012, 18:10

Da Prevare u audio svetu ima na tone i imace......

Zato ja kupujem samo kod: http://www.2l.no
Kad vec prenosimo tekstove:

Lindberg Lyd has been passionate about Super Audio CD and since the year 2000 has been making serious investment in the new format through advanced equipment and pioneering technology like DXD. (Details of equipment list could be found on www.lindberg.no). Their approach is somehow different from the others. They would not shy away from using the surround channels to their full potential, dedicated to actual instruments or vocal parts instead of just the ambience. The music seems to be more engaging and more involving, putting the listener right in the centre of music making. Most multi-channel projects are all discrete 5-channel recordings employing five microphones and five recording tracks (sometimes augmented with back up or fill in microphones and tracks). Depending on the repertoire and the recording venue, but whenever possible, they would avoid cardioid microphones that have narrow directional characteristics. In the recording of Mozart's concertos for violin and orchestra (2L38 SACD) the members of the orchestra formed a circle, with the five microphones set up in the middle. That places the listener into the position of the conductor. Vibrancy is in the air. Tone of the instruments is vividly natural. The Gregorian Chant recording by Consortium Vocale Oslo [2L43SACD] also conjures lifelike presence without exaggerating hi-fi excitement. Both these titles are DXD processing. The result is sonic quality that exemplifies high definition and fine, smooth texture. "Working on the cutting edge of audio would not have been possible without a close and intense cooperation with Merging Technologies, DPA microphones, Digital Audio Denmark, Steinway & Sons and generously open minded musicians."

So what is DXD? As we know, SACD has adopted a digital processing called DSD, Direct Stream Digital, or more technically correct, DSD64. That means, based on the Red Book specified 44.1 kHz sampling frequency, the data stream will go through a 1-bit/64 times over-sampling process to achieve an audio date rate of 2.8224 Mbit/s. DSD signals further require a noise shaping process to sustain the dynamic range of 120 dB within the primary bandwidth of 20 Hz - 20 kHz but that causes the noise spectrum to increase above 22 kHz. One obvious solution is the process known as DSD128, which increases resolution to wider bandwidth by doubling the over-sampling rate to 1-bit/128 times. The down side is that the data size would also be doubled and would require large media storage, rendering it impractical for commercial applications. Digital eXtreme Definition is a professional audio format that brings "analogue" qualities in 32 bit floating point at 352.8 kHz. DXD preserves 11.2896 Mbit/s (4 times the data of DSD). This leaves headroom for editing and balancing before quantizing to DSD. Super Audio CD is the carrier that brings the pure quality to the domestic audience, supporting high resolution sound in multi channel. The disc still looks like a CD and is totally compatible with conventional CD players and computers. Presence and participation are the magic words for future listeners. Surround sound brings the listener to the very centre of the audio experience. The signal path is as simple and short as it is technically advanced and the company has devised a formula for the recordings, which Lindberg Lyd describe as: "Fantastic musicians and adventurous music in a beautiful venue!"

This presentation of 2L is compiled from articles written by David Kan, Zenon Schoepe and Lindberg Lyd AS
Edited by Lindberg Lyd AS 2007



Blu-ray is the first domestic format in history that unites theatre movies and music sound in equally high quality. The musical advantage of Blu-ray is the high resolution for audio, and the convenience for the audience as one single player will handle music, films, their DVD-collection and their old library of traditional CD.

What we are seeing is a completely new conception of the musical experience. Recorded music is no longer a matter of a fixed two-dimensional setting, but rather a three-dimensional enveloping situation. Stereo can be described as a flat canvas, while surround sound is a sculpture that you can literally move around and relate to spatially; with surround you can move about in the aural space and choose angles, vantage points and positions.

By developing one common format the surround technology that we have been working with for years finally becomes accessible to the general public. Fairly soon almost all disc players will be Blu-ray devices, and already now a majority of the sound systems that come off the shelf are 5.1 surround systems. People buy the equipment for the sake of film entertainment, but with it they get access to the unique musical experience that we are offering. Stereo is still possible of course, but the fact is that the resistance towards surround is mostly based on ignorance. People just don’t know what they are missing out on.

A senior Norwegian HiFi journalist visited our studio recently. Prior to our listening session I explained to him how we recorded MOZART and DIVERTIMENTI with the orchestra in a circle, all musicians facing each other – surrounding the listener. He rose from his chair and wanted to leave. I begged him to listen - and he stayed for three hours; leaving us with the conclusion: “Now I need to go home and write an article apologising all my readers for the thirty years I have misguided them in stereo. Surround sound is the real thing.”

The musical and technical process of recording and editing are identical for SACD and Blu-ray. When I started as a recording engineer in 1990 there was no focus on surround sound in classical music. It was the introduction of SACD that made us aware of this magnificent perspective. Surround sound gave us the solution to the depth and spatial resolution we experienced live on stage in a concert house, but were not able to recreate in stereo.

We prefer to record in spacious acoustic venues; large concert halls, churches and cathedrals. This is actually where we can make the most intimate recordings. The qualities we seek in large rooms are not necessarily a big reverb, but openness due to the absence of close reflecting walls. Making an ambient and beautiful recording is the way of least resistance. Searching the fine edge between direct contact and openness; that’s the real challenge. A really good recording should be able to bodily move the listener. This core quality of audio production is made by choosing the right venue for the repertoire, and balancing the image in the placement of microphones and musicians relative to each other in that venue. Planning and discussions with the musicians create trust and a sense of occasion and excitement that translates onto the recordings. What we insist upon in the recording phase is time. We usually spend from four to six days of recording on a 60-minutes repertoire. In credit of the musicians I need to say that this is not in need of getting the score right, but in order to bring forward the right mood and dimensions. At most projects the entire first day is spent bringing the dimensions down from a 1500-people hall to the proximity encountered on a home-visit to your living room. The challenge of this process is to get the volume down, keeping the intensity and energy up, without being intrusive. There is no method available today to reproduce the exact perception of attending a live performance. That leaves us with the art of illusion when it comes to recording music. As recording engineers and producers we need to do exactly the same as any good musician; interpret the music and the composer's intentions and adapt to the media where we perform.

Digital reproduction of analogue sound

At venue recording sessions our analogue to digital converters can do both the one-bit DSD and the multi-bit PCM formats. We can also listen directly to the analogue output from the microphones. Digital eXtreme Definition is a professional audio format that brings “analogue” qualities in 24 bit at 352.8 kHz sampling rate. DXD preserves 8.4672 Mbit/s (3 times the data of DSD) per channel. This leaves headroom for editing and balancing before quantizing to DSD for SACD or PCM for Blu-Ray.
All audio formats on The Nordic Sound are sample rate converted from the same DXD master. Comparing them in our studio we find only subtle differences from DXD down to 192kHz and 96kHz. The obvious degeneration is from 96kHz down to 48kHz. We find DSD, as used in the SACD format, somewhat different in colour from PCM; in some mysterious way DSD is softer and more beautiful but slightly less detailed. In DXD we find the shimmering brilliance from the original analogue source as directly from the microphones. Linear PCM is offered in addition to DTS HD Master Audio on this Blu-ray with the purpose of convincing audiophiles of the true lossless qualities of commercial encoding. The stereo layer of the SACD and the LPCM 2.0-stream on the Blu-ray are both full resolution mix from the original microphones. Mostly we find that the microphone placements used for the surround make a fine stereo. Occasionally we put up extra microphones dedicated for the stereo stream.
I personally prefer extremely high resolution PCM over the DSD and I would claim that DSD is not transparent. But it all comes down to what the sound from your speakers can do to your body and mind. I find that the placement of microphones has an infinite more important role in the final experience of music, than the difference between HiRes PCM and DSD. Sometimes a lie can be more beautiful than the truth!

Stereo versus multi channel surround sound – The quest of resolution

Double the investment in your stereo play-back system and you might experience a subjective increase in performance in the range from 10 to 20 %. Then spread the same investment over a 5.1 surround sound system and you get an objective 300 % increase of resolution and perspective! The fact that makes the above balance not materialize is that very few labels up to now have produced content that bring out the full potential of MCH. The approach of “rear for ambience only” is still feeding carbohydrates to the persistent claims of stereophiles.
When it comes to recording a solo instrument, a lot of conservative forces claim that surround sound can add nothing to a good stereo. This might be the case with a traditional dry "synthetic" multi-mono-sources studio recording. But to us it's not about the object itself; it's all about the landscape where the instruments perform. In real life a grand piano is not a point source; it's a three dimensional sculpture, and surround sound is our tool to bring forward that physical experience to the listener.
Morten Lindberg, January 2009

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DejanM
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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by DejanM » 13 Aug 2012, 18:36

Ovde su misljenja znacajno podeljena i stvari nisu tako jednostavne kako ih ovaj lik predstavlja. U svakom slucaju industrija ide dalje u pravcu vece rezolucije i vecih sampling rates ...

Ono sto sam ja primetio igrajuci se sa upsamplingom (softwarski) jeste da upsampling na 24/192 KHz donosi odredjene promene u zvuku koje dozivljavam kao boljim. Ono sto je takodje definitivno jasno jeste smanjena kolicina suma nakon upsamplinga. To sam radio sa 16/44,1 snimcima, koje sam upsamplovao na 24/192.

Istina je da je vecina snimaka koje se prodaju na internetu zapravo upsampling na 24/192 ili 24/96 i to ne cak ni sa DSD snimaka nego sa obicnoh 16/44,1. U HiFi News mozete da vidite analize tih snimaka i poredjenje sa obicnim CD, koji cesto sluze zapravo kao izvor za upsampling proces. To nije nikakva tajna - niti neko pokusava da to mistifikuje. Medjutim ti snimci, nakon upsamplinga, zvuce zbilja jako dobro. Nisam ih medjutim poredio sa originalnim snimcima (sa kojeg je vrsen upsampling) tako da ne mogu da kazem da li je taj kvalitet posledica upsamplinga. Igrajuci se sam sa upsamplingom, rekao bih da je jedan deo tog kvaliteta ipak posledica upsampling procesa (koji obicno ne sadrzi samo upsampling nego i jos neke intervencije: prosirenje frekventnog opsega (iako se iznad 22 KHz tu uglavnom nista ne desava), potiskivanje suma, korekcije frekventnog opsega, itd.).

Medjutim o tome se dosta lome koplja. Vecina modernih DACova ima ugradjene hardwarski upsampling (bilo u jeftinijim varijantama preko posebnih chipova za upsamling, bilo u skupljim varijantama preko programibilnih DSPs). Medjutim postoje i DACovi gde se namerno izbegava upsampling proces (receiveri mogu da prihvate hi res ali ako stize 16/44,1 onda on nece biti upsamplovan na 24/xy). Konstruktori tih DACova jasno navode da upsampling proces narusava kvalitet reprodukcije. Medjutim tu se postavlja i pitanje: koji upsampling proces; nacin kako je izveden odnosno koji algoritam je koriscen; itd.

Inace sta covek cuje i koliko je bita i Hz potrebno da bi se nesto culo - jeste oblast prepuna neznanja i obicnog nagadjanja. Uobicajeno shvatanje da covek cuje do 20 KHz i da je zbog toga besmisleno imati veci frekventni opseg HiFi uredjaja jeste pogresno shvatanje (ovde na forumu je bilo dosta diskusije na tu temu).

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by PrekoBare » 13 Aug 2012, 20:04

"Zene ce pobacivati ako se budu vozile u vozu brzinom od 20 milja na sat" - nepoznati autor, rani 19. vek

"Nikom nece trebati racunar u kuci" - Ken Olsen, osnivac DEC 1977

"640Kb ce biti dovoljno za bilo koga"- Bil Gejts, 1981

"192KHz is way off the mark. It brings about higher distortions, bigger data files, increased processing costs, and all that for no up side! Dan Lavry, proizvodjac DA konvertera, 2008


Steta, mislio sam da je Dan Lavry jedan od postenih ljudi u ovom hobiju, pre svega zbog toga sto je vecina njegovih kupaca u profesionalnim vodama a ne audiofiliji. nazalost, prevario sam se.


Ne radi se uopste o tome da ce upsamplovana fajla dobiti ista na kvalitetu, nego da se 192/24 DA cip dovede u rezim u kome bolje radi. Znaci, upsampling povecava efikasnost DAC-a a ne kvalitet snimka. A to izgleda Dana zulji. Da kad pocnu da se masovnije koriste hirez fajle da ce izgubiti deo trzisnog kolaca, jer ce na trzistu biti boljih od njega. Pa se sad batrga kako zna i ume. Pateticno.

Tacno je da se u Hi-rez marerijalu dobijenom upsamplovanjem redbook-a preko 20KHz nista ne nalazi osim 'the sound of silence". Ali to isto znaci da se filtriranje obavlja nekoliko oktava dalje od cujnog opsega, za razliku od redbooka gde se obavlja u rubnom podrucju. Procitajte Ayon white paper o tom problemu kad se brickwall nalanja na cujni opseg.

Jedino sta je prihvatljiva diskusija je - sta bolje svira - nativni redbook snimak kroz Philips TDA1541A S3 ili taj fajl upsamplovan na 176.4/24 koji svira kroz moderan 192/24 DA cip.

Tako se porede dva cipa koja rade oba u svom optimumu, i to daje jedino validni zakljucak.
(za one koji ne znaju, izlazna struja iz starih 16-bitnih cipova je jaca nego iz ovih danasnjih 192/24-bitnih pa poredjenje
16 bitnog cipa koji reprodukuje redbook snimak i 192/24 bitnog koji reprodukuje taj isti snimak nisu validna, jer se radi o razlicitoj jacini struje na izlazu i konsekventno tome razlicitim tehnickim resenjima nizvodno. )

Poredjenje Philips TDA1541A S3/ redbook snimak sa recimo Burr Brown 1796/176.4/24 snimak je poredjenje dva sistema koja rade u svom optimumu tj. kao poredjenje "sta se bolje cuje, LP ploca na 45 rpm ili R2R na 38cm/s?
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by Kuja » 13 Aug 2012, 21:33

PrekoBare wrote:
Tacno je da se u Hi-rez marerijalu dobijenom upsamplovanjem redbook-a preko 20KHz nista ne nalazi osim 'the sound of silence".

Ali to isto znaci da se filtriranje obavlja nekoliko oktava dalje od cujnog opsega, za razliku od redbooka gde se obavlja u rubnom podrucju.
Da li je za to filtriranje van cujnog opsega dovoljno i 24/96?

Moj DAC (Naim) radi i sa 24/768 (!!!) fajlovima (barem tako pise u uputstvu), ima i DSP koji interno apsempluje i sve,
ALI na izlazu ima analogni filter koji reze sve iznad 30kHz.

Upravo zbog one prethodne price o ultrasonicnom djubretu koje bez potrebe opterecuje pojacalo i zvucnike.

Iz istog razloga i SACD plejeri imaju takve filtere, posto je sve preko 30 kHz kvantizacijski shum (i to jako puno shuma).


Probao sam na Naimu direktno preko USB memory sticka (znaci preskocen strimer i SPDIF)
obe verzije istog albuma sa HDtracks - 24/88.2 i 24/192.
Nikakvu razliku nisam cuo.

Zato se preterano i ne uzbudjujem sto neki uredjaj nema mogucnost strimovanja 24/192 fajlova.

SB Touch koji takodje koristim kao SPDIF izvor se moze unaprediti da radi i na 24/192, ali me iskreno mrzi da to uradim.

...A nemam ni neke potrebe,
posto je najmladja muzika koju slusam snimljena pre 15-20 godina, a vecina je mnogo starija,
tako da tu nema native 24/192 snimaka koji bi (teoretski) mozda imali smisla.

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by PrekoBare » 13 Aug 2012, 22:23

Kujo, ne znam da ti odgovorim, 96 Khz je 2.5 oktave od cujnog dela spektra, valjda je dovoljno daleko.

Koliko znam, mnogi SACD plejeri ostavljaju opciju aktivacije filtera na 50KHz.

Ja bih opisao svoje iskustvo da ne cujem prisustvo ultrazvucnog spektra ali cujem odsustvo. Da napomenem da imam pre/pro koje je sirokopojasno opsega preko 100 Khz, a KEF-ov tviter je deklarisan do 40,000 Hz sto verovatno da nije bas tacno, ali ajde, poredjenja radi)

Meni mnoge danasnje izjave proizvodjaca izazivaju smeh. Vecina novih uredjaja (pojacala, predpojacala) ima propusni opseg od samo 20Hz-20KHz. Kad to uporedis sa propusnim opsegom nekog boljeg Sansuija ili Luxmana iz proslosti (do 300 ili cak 600 KHz) ovaj danasnji samozvani "hi-end" se vidi u pravom svetlu - hi-swindle za velike pare.

Postavlja se pitanje, da li ce ovako osakacene igracke uleteti u kliping ako dobiju signal koji nije odsecen preko 20Khz?
Pojacalo koje se gusi sa sirokopojasnim signalom je onda moguce predstaviti kao dokaz o stetnosti sirokopojasnog signala.
A vlasnika ce da strefe bolesti i pomor ako to slusa. Zato su srecom tu odjednom proizvodjaci digitalnih uredjaja da brinu o nasem zdravlju i da brinu o "ultrazvucnom zagadjenju". A samo u prosloj generaciji smo imali MC glave koje su isle do 50KHz, tj. 1.5 oktavu u ultrazvucni spektar. Kako to da niko nije pricao o "ultrazvucnom zagadjenju" kad su Murata i B&W i drugi izbacili supertvitere koji idu do 60KHz.

E, kad sad treba da se stane na crtu, vuna kico. Pocinje ubedjivanje tipa "Ne treba vam hi-rez, baci to, puj, kakano, sad ce cika da vam da zvecku zvanu Magic 6, samo mi dodajte kreditnu karticu." Eca beca tako se varaju mala deca.

Image

"A i sta ce mi hi-rez reprodukcija kad em je kiselo em jos i opasno je po zdravlje" rece lisica
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by DejanM » 14 Aug 2012, 09:26

Kuja wrote:
Da li je za to filtriranje van cujnog opsega dovoljno i 24/96?
Jeste dovoljno je. Dovoljno je i 16/44,1 ... ali ne radi se o tome.
Kuja wrote:Moj DAC (Naim) radi i sa 24/768 (!!!) fajlovima (barem tako pise u uputstvu), ima i DSP koji interno apsempluje i sve,
ALI na izlazu ima analogni filter koji reze sve iznad 30kHz.

Upravo zbog one prethodne price o ultrasonicnom djubretu koje bez potrebe opterecuje pojacalo i zvucnike.

Iz istog razloga i SACD plejeri imaju takve filtere, posto je sve preko 30 kHz kvantizacijski shum (i to jako puno shuma).
Ne samo SACD playeri nego i svi moderni DACovi rezu tu negde oko 30 KHz. Tu ne racunam NOS DACove, koji se i dalje solidno prodaju a neki od njih i dobro sviraju. Ja, recimo, i dalje nisam cuo nista bolje od Audio Note DACova (onih sa vecim brojem) koji nemaju nista od sve ove moderne sikane a sviraju zbilja izuzetno.

Kuja wrote:Probao sam na Naimu direktno preko USB memory sticka (znaci preskocen strimer i SPDIF)
obe verzije istog albuma sa HDtracks - 24/88.2 i 24/192.
Nikakvu razliku nisam cuo.
Ja sam to isto radio na Embli - jedan te isti snimak u 24/96 i 24/192 sam poredio i razlika, i ako je postojala, je bila jako mala. Pricao sam o tome sa poznanikom koji se bavi snimanjem muzike profesionalno, i on mi rece da je moguci razlog u masteru - ako je on uradjen sa odredjenim propustima onda upsampling nece stvari uciniti boljim. Na moju primedbu da nisam cuo nikakve propuste, rece mi da oni ne mogu lako da se uoce ako nemas istrenirano uho ... Sa druge strane, postoje odlicni snimci u 16/44,1. Ja sam skoro spustio album za koji sam smeo ruku u vatru da stavim da je Hi Res. Medjutim nije - najobicniji Red Book RIP u FLAC formatu. Jos nisam izvukao nikakve zakljucke iz ovih iskustava ...
Kuja wrote:Zato se preterano i ne uzbudjujem sto neki uredjaj nema mogucnost strimovanja 24/192 fajlova.
I ne treba da se uzbudjujes ...
Kuja wrote:SB Touch koji takodje koristim kao SPDIF izvor se moze unaprediti da radi i na 24/192, ali me iskreno mrzi da to uradim.

...A nemam ni neke potrebe,
posto je najmladja muzika koju slusam snimljena pre 15-20 godina, a vecina je mnogo starija,
tako da tu nema native 24/192 snimaka koji bi (teoretski) mozda imali smisla.

Kazu da taj plug-in ne omogucava samo streaming od 24/192 na SB Touchu vec i da popravlja reprodukciju 16/44,1. Ja licno nisam probao (nemam Touch vec Duet) pa ne mogu da potvrdim ili negiram ove tvrdnje sa interneta.

Samo jos par stvari koje nemaju veze sa Kujinim primedbama ... Prva se odnosi na to da se danas prodaju pojedini uredjaji (ponekad za vrlo velike novce) koji podrzavaju najvise 24/96. Iako ta karakteristika nekog streamera ili DACa ne kazuje gotovo nista o kvalitetu njegove reprodukcije ipak ukazuje na cinjenicu da nije koriscena najnovija tehnologija u njegovoj izradi. I dok za uredjaj od 500 eura to mogu nekako i da razumem ali za uredjaj od 6500 eura mi je tako nesto tesko prihvatljivo. Druga se odnosi na same Hi Res snimke. Ocigledno je da je vecina njih zapravo upsampling regularnih Red Book files i da zapravo ne predstavlja native Hi Res snimak. I pored toga mislim da je njihovo postojanje dragoceno jer se neko ocigledno pozabavio kvalitetom tih snimaka i pokusao da ih unapredi (ne uvek uspesno). A i to je nesto ...

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by DejanM » 14 Aug 2012, 10:01

U zadnjem broju Hi Fi News je vrsena analiza Hi Res files koji mogu da se kupe na trzistu. Ako ste imali prilike da slusate Naim Hi Res downloads onda ste mogli da primetite da Naim snimci sviraju nesto drugacije od ostalih (recimo od Linn Hi Res snimaka). Naime Naim tvrdi da su snimci uradjeni kompletno analogno, sa koriscenjem samo 2 mikrofona. I obrada je kompletno analogna sve do digitalizacije koja se vrsi na samom kraju lanca kada se vrsi upsampling. I zbilja, Naim snimci zvuce "analogno" - pomalo umeksano, svakako bez clippinga, sa mozda nesto nizim nivoom detalja ali zato za mnoge "muzikalno". Analiza HiFi News pokazuje da Naim snimci po pravilu imaju nesto visi novi suma (izgleda da se nisu ni trudili da ga digitalizacijom uklone !) kao i suptilna upotreba ditheringa koja daje taj pomalo "umeksani" zvuk, koji se onda dozivljava kao "analogni".

Navodeci ovo hocu da skrenem paznju na to da nije samo podatak o broju bita i sampling frekvenciji bitan, vec naravno i nacin kako je napravljen snimak, kako je taj snimak onda digitalno obradjen, itd. Ocigledno je da postoji dosta drugih parametara koji uticu na kvalitet reprodukcije od same cinjenice koliko nesti ima bita ili KHz.

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by first » 14 Aug 2012, 13:37

DejanM wrote:...Ocigledno je da postoji dosta drugih parametara koji uticu na kvalitet reprodukcije od same cinjenice koliko nesti ima bita ili KHz.
:yh Uh, dobro je....

.... a već sam se bio zabrinuo za tebe da si podlegao koje kakvim demagoškim pričama oko sempling rejta..... :oky

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by PrekoBare » 14 Aug 2012, 15:25

DejanM wrote:Ocigledno je da je vecina njih zapravo upsampling regularnih Red Book files i da zapravo ne predstavlja native Hi Res snimak. I pored toga mislim da je njihovo postojanje dragoceno jer se neko ocigledno pozabavio kvalitetom tih snimaka i pokusao da ih unapredi (ne uvek uspesno). A i to je nesto ...
Dejane, meni ne smeta sto se upsamplovani redbook prodaje kao hirez, nego sto to jasno ne pise na reklami za download. Da pise, moglo bi da se kaze, svaka roba nadje svog kupca. Ima ljudi ciji je sat 200-2000 eura, nece da se bakcu glupostima tipa diy upsampling, lakse im je da kliknu na download, a ima i onih koji nisu u stanju to sami da urade, kao sto neko kupuje miks za testo za palacinke u samoposluzi jer ne zna sam da ga napravi :-)

Ne samo Hifi World, i TAS je u broju od jula/avgusta obradio temu i interesantne su reakcije citalaca u septembarskom broju, totalno nerazumevanje, cak i ljutnja, otprilike kao i ovde.

Posebna prica je kad prodavci kao Linn kazu da "nisu bili upoznati" da snimci koje prodaju kao hirez poticu od 16/44.1
i da su kontaktirali kupce cim su saznali za "issue". Da im verujemo :-)
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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by kamen » 14 Aug 2012, 16:01

PrekoBare,

Tako je, a Linn su tacno znali sta rade kao i ostali, pa kada se otkrila prevara onda oni nisu krivi njima
neko uvalio jao jadni oni daj da ih zalimo.
Celog zivota sam se nagledao ovde kod nas kako se ljudi od gresnika pretvaraju u mucenika.

Bas zato sam preneo onaj tekst sa web strane: http://www.2l.no
tamo su ljudi lepo napisali sta tacno rade kako snimaju kako to obradjuju itd...
Lepo pise kako oni shvataju snimanje i reprodukciju muzike pa kome se to dopada neka izvoli,
a ko misli da je njihov pristup pogresan obratice se na drugu stranu, ...

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by PrekoBare » 14 Aug 2012, 16:22

Kamen, hvala ti mnogo za preporuku, video sam da na sajtu ima dosta besplatnih uzoraka u odeljku TEST BENCH . To se odmah vidi da je posten svet. Moracu da preuzmem po nesto i da slusam.

Normalno da treba da zarade kad rade posteno.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you appreciate this test bench, please feel free to make a contribution to our further development of HiRes audio

We invite you to join us in this evaluation of future consumer delivery formats. FLAC is a lossless encoding of WAV-files derived directly from our production original used for the SACD and Pure Audio Blu-ray. All resolutions and encodings are derived from the same original DXD source files. Please send us an e-mail and share your experience on your practical experience with these file formats. Enjoy the music!
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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by DejanM » 14 Aug 2012, 18:11

Evo konkretnog primera ... Radi se o pesmi Custard Pie grupe Led Zeppelin sa njihovog sestog albuma. Ovde vidite editovan "original" snimak, koji ima dosta suma. Taj sum je narocito uocljiv u podrucju iznad 6 KHz i jasno se cuje jer tu nije maskiran toliko zvukom banda kao sto je to slucaj sa sumom na nizem frekventnom opsegu.
01 Custard Pie before upsampling.png
01 Custard Pie before upsampling.png (105.55 KiB) Viewed 1215 times
01 Custard Pie before upsampling.png
01 Custard Pie before upsampling.png (105.55 KiB) Viewed 1215 times
Kada uradite upsampling onda dobar deo tog suma nestane i dobijete daleko "cistiji" snimak. Posledica upsamplinga (u ovom slucaju) jeste onda i pojava nekih detalja koje ranije nije bilo moguce cuti.Evo kako to sada izgleda:
01 Custard Pie after upsampling.png
01 Custard Pie after upsampling.png (96.9 KiB) Viewed 1215 times
01 Custard Pie after upsampling.png
01 Custard Pie after upsampling.png (96.9 KiB) Viewed 1215 times
U ovom slucaju je upsampling uradjen na 24/192. Sto se samog suma tice, povecanje sa 16 na 24 bita nije dalo neki vidljiv rezultat. Samo povecanje sampling frekvencije na 192 KHz jeste.

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by DejanM » 14 Aug 2012, 23:06

A evo kako izgleda isti file upsamplovan na 96 KHz:
01 Custard Pie 96 KHz.png
01 Custard Pie 96 KHz.png (82.28 KiB) Viewed 1166 times
01 Custard Pie 96 KHz.png
01 Custard Pie 96 KHz.png (82.28 KiB) Viewed 1166 times
Vidi se da izgleda losije nego kada je u pitanju upsample na 192 KHz. Sum u VF podrucju nije u potpunosti otklonjen ...

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Re: Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6

Post by PrekoBare » 15 Aug 2012, 01:56

Dejane, tu u tvom gradu je zivela jedna zena iz cuvene familije intelektualaca i filosofa i dosta je uticala na svog muza, poznatog lekara koji se verovatno i zahvaljuci njoj proslavio, ali se u to vreme o tome nije govorilo. Uz pomoc svog bratanca je postavila osnove politicke propagande kasnije eufemisticki nazvane PR. Njeno ime se retko pominje.Bratanac se pominje nesto cesce, uglavnom kao otac PR-a i moderne reklame jer je bio pravi whiz kid. Njihovo istrazivanje je uglavnom siroko poznato preko jednog odurnog tipa koji ga je do daske koristio na najvulgarniji moguci nacin.

Sustina se svodi na to da vecinu ljudi ne mozes ubediti uz pomoc racionalnih argumenata nego igrajuci na njihove emocije i
strahove. Eto na sta cilja poruka da je ultrazvucni sadrzaj stetan po nase zdravlje i po uredjaje :-)
"Najbolje je neprijatelj dobrog"

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